Written by Mr. Mouseburger 1st Mar 2006
Kindly submitted by Iguana Boy
For looking up things like basic pregnancy symptoms or just general questions about your health you may find that the Internet is a good source of medical advice and information. Of course if you're in danger of dying from some sort of medical condition then you need to speak with a doctor, not do a health search online.
The American soldiers, numbers depleted, hungry, and tired have resolved to fight a suicide mission defending – or blowing up - a crucial bridge that could turn the tide of World War II.
In an effort to keep the untested translator out of harms way, or to make sure he doesn't get in the way of the fighting, Mellish, a tough Brooklyn Jew, loads the milquetoast Corporal Upham with ammunition, telling him to be "Johnny on the Spot" with the additional bullet belts.
As the final battle wages on, Upham finds himself out of ammunition in an attic room, and Mellish is fighting one-on-one against a German soldier. The German slowly gains the upper hand. Mellish pulls out a knife, but the German is too strong, and pushes Mellish's hand backwards, pointing the blade towards the American's chest. Mellish starts to beg. "Wait a minute. Wait a minute"
Meanwhile, Upham is stricken with panic and unable to move. He hides literally next door to the fight, and all he would have had to do is enter the room and fire his weapon in order to save his friend's life. But he can not.
The German slowly pushes the knife into Mellish's chest, quietly whispering something in German, which translates as "Give up, you don't stand a chance! Let's end this here; it will be easier for you like this!" Mellish shakes as his life leaves him and the German leaves the room, walking past the quivering Upham. The German leaves him alone; he is not a threat.
Was the stabby german soldier the same Steamboat willie they released earlier? The same one who is later shot by the translator? I know of the three instances two are teh same guy, not sure if its all three.
It's not the same guy, at least according to sources I've read.
It must have been the same guy. At the end he says, "Upham..." before Upham shoots him.
The german guy that he shoots, saying ´upham i know you´, that is the guy they let go with a blindfold earlier in the film
[quote DeathAngel]It must have been the same guy. At the end he says, "Upham..." before Upham shoots him.[/quote]Yes, the guy who kills Tom Hanks and is then shot by Upham is the fellow who they let go earlier. But the one who kills Mellish and passes Upham on the stairs is a different guy.
Is the soldier that they let go and shot Tom Hanks the same soldier who killed the american soldier with the knife? I need whatever help I can get on this one, there are at least 100 people saying they were the same and I'm one of the few that says differently. ( There are steak dinners riding on this.)
Try reading through a thread before you post. It's been stablished that the soldier who kills Miller (Hanks) is not the same guy who kills Mellish. The guy who kills Miller is "Steamboat Willie," the machine-gunner who Miller let go earlier; Upham kills him in retaliation. The guy who stabs Mellish is a different soldier.
What makes it confusing is the guy loses his helmet in the fight with Mellish, making it difficult to distinguish him from Steamboat Willie because all of the Germans have odd crewcuts (which I've read most German soldiers of the time did not actually have), making them all appear very similar to one another with their helmets off.
The guy who kills Mellish was Waffen-SS, as shown by the SS insignia on his collar. Steamboat Willie, on the other hand, lacks this insignia. For more details, click here.
The small squad of Rangers and airborne troops defending the bridge are fighting a Waffen SS divsion, the 2nd SS Panzer Division "Das Reich". This is chronologically incorrect as the Das Reich division arrived on the Western Front around 16th July, while Miller's headstone states that he died on the 14th, during the main battle for the bridge with Das Reich division tanks, assault guns and Panzergrenadiers (motorised infantry). The Das Reich division had been battle tested, hardened and performed with great skill on the Eastern Front against the Red Army before being transferred to the West. Its a shame that in Saving Private Ryan they are portrayed as being so green, walking straight into Miller's outfits ambush without methodically clearing house to house during their advance through the town. Given the importance of the bridge and lack of any visible resistance, they should have known that something wasn't right and anticipated an ambush in advance, instead of walking straight into it and getting blown to hell and gone. Only their numbers really saved them. Other things like driving a Marder (open topped tank destroyer) down the main street, lined with multi-teared buildings was just plain stupid. The Marder, inevitably was knocked out from above by infantry with Molotov cocktails. Another point I wonder about is whether the Stug (assault gun) could elevate its 75mm weapon as much as it did to engage Jackson (the sniper) and Parker (the machine gunner) in the bell tower. I should check it. On the American side, having two .30 cal machine guns - why not distribute ALL the .30 cal ammunition before the ambush, instead of trying to do it piecemeal, under intense fire? Anticipating close combat, those with compatible weapons - including Mellish - should have fixed bayonets. Mellish would have stood a better chance against the SS infantryman who eventually stabs him, if he had done so. The SS panzergrenadier that kills Mellish is NOT "Steamboat Willie", "Willie" is shot in the end when Upham somehow manages to get 10-15 men to surrender, and he tries to communicate with Upham. But Upham had seen him shoot Captain Miller on the bridge, who had shown him mercy back at the radar site. Upham decides he deserves to die for his misdeeds and pops him then and there. Also, "Willie" is not an SS trooper, he is a Wermacht soldier, probably from the 352nd infantry division, who were defending the beaches at Omaha. There are numerous things that I won't go on with. Saving Private Ryan is a great movie, but it has its flaws just like any other.
After researching, I found that the Stug (probably Ausf F variant), in that close proximity to the bell tower, would not have been able to elevate its 75mm main weapon to engage Jackson (the sniper) and his supporting machine gunner in the bell tower. A few other things - I never saw any of the Tiger I (tanks) fire their hull mounted machine guns, which are purposely designed to engage attacking infantry over the frontal arc; the drivers vision block on the tanks is not open, as depicted in the film, they were protected by a layer of bullet-proof glass; Sgt Horvath should have known that fring bazooka rounds at the (second) Tiger turret did not give much chance for a kill, he would have neen better off either retreating wile there was still time or going for the tanks tracks to achieve a mobility kill. Instead the bazooka rounds were ineffective against the Tigers thick frontal armour including the turret. There's more. I'll add to the when they come to mind.
On the subject of Sgt Horvath, his tactics were sound when engaging the Stug (assault gun) from the rear where the armour is thinnest. The Stug was completely destroyed by his bazooka shot. If possible the same tactic should have been used on the second Tiger tank but this was probably impossible since the bridge was being overrun by SS infantry. On Capt Miller, it seems ludicrous that he attempted to retrieve the firing mechanism for blowing the bridge in an upright position, but he was in shell shock, after a close indirect hit from the Tiger's powerful 88mm PaK main gun. Shell shock is a terrible thing and Miller ended up taking a bad chest shot, notably from "Steamboat Wille", who had joined the Das Reich division sometime after being let go at the radar station. Upham eventually took care of him and at that point became a real soldier.
Lastly, on the hand to hand fight between Mellish and the SS Das Reich panzergrenadier that eventually kills him. As I mentioned before, Mellish should have fixed his bayonet which would have given him a better chance of a kill (longer range, better leverage), but he had not. Mellish really only gave himself one good chance against his enemy - the single time he was on top and then drew his bayonet in a flimsy, unsecure grip. When on top he had the opportunity to pin his opponent to the ground by the throat (strangle), get as much weight as he could on him (get lower, laying on him) and gouge out his eyes, rather than staying high and pulling his bayonet in a grip that would make it fairly easy for his opponent to disarm him, which is exactly what happened. You can't fight if you can't see. He could then have used his bayonet to cut or stab at his opponents throat. Mellish remained mounted high on his opponent where his weight was not really advantageous. I am a Ninjutsu practicioner and understand the techniques behind grapple fighting. Mellish was inevitably overturned and had his weapon taken by force from the flimsy grip he had it in, ending up in a very bad position, on his back and mounted by an armed opponent. This is somewhere you never wan't to be. When pinned by the SS soldier toward the end of the fight, Mellish attempted to push the bayonet straight back up, against the entire weight of his opponent, rather that pushing it up and to the side to get the bayonet pointing away from his body. He could also have used a wrist lock to force the German onto his side, giving him another opportunity to get control. He did neither unfortunately. The SS soldier, being bigger and stronger, had only to push down with all his weight and wait for Mellish to tire before ramming the bayonet fatally into his chest, around the heart area. Mellish had few opportunities to defeat his opponent but unfortunately did not make use of them. Another weapon that could have been highly useful in such close combat was Mellishs' entrenching tool, sharpened to a razors edge. Use of these was common practice in the room to room fighting on the Eastern Front (i.e. Stalingrad) and they proved a very deadly adversary. However hindsight is always 20/20 isn't it? That's just my thoughts on the death of Mellish.
...one last thing, not really related to this thread but I'll say it anyway: I feel that the death of Wade (the medic), hit during the frontal assault on the machine gun site at the radar station, was far more tear-jerking than the death of Mellish or anyone else in the movie for that matter. It was a very painful and emotional scene for me to watch. I don't know how anyone else feels about it...
...completely agree with you, David. Wade's gentle nature throughout the movie, his role as the platoon's life-saver, and his calling out for his mother while he bleeds to death all conspire at once to hit you right in the chest. But, oddly enough, the scene that hits me hardest is right after Wade's death, when Cpt. Miller goes off by himself to break down in private by the radar tower.....gets me just about every time.
I totally agree with you dude. After watching Wade die from multiple machine gun hits in the abdomen, painfully, crying out for his mother and begging not to die and to go home (this scene always puts a lump in my throat), I think the enormous weight of responsibility hit Cpt Miller very hard. He must have felt completely helpless watching Wade, gentle natured and caring as you say, fade away as he bled out from his wounds. The little they could do was fill him with morphine to at least give him some respite from his physical pain and fear while slowly dying. Cpt Miller would have felt a terrible weight of responsibility after giving the order for the squad to assault the machine gun nest and losing one of his men in such an awful way. Cpt Miller breaks from the group to a location where he could be alone and ensures that no one sees him release the anguish from all of this, crying and pouring it all out alone as he did. This too, was very emotional to watch and every time I see it I just wish that there was someone who could provide a shoulder to lean on and support him through that terribly emotional time. But Cpt Miller, being selfless and not wanting to shake his squads faith in his leadership, cried and poured it out alone.
I thought I might put in a point of interest, from the German (2nd SS Das Reich) battlegroup point of view, advancing toward the bridge and getting caught in a well laid out ambush prepared by Cpt Miller's squad and the small group of airborne soldiers defending the bridge. The combat was to be 3 dimensional, in that there were firing positions both level with and above the anticipated route of the Germans towards the bridge. Until ammunition was depleted, then being overwhelmed by numbers, Cpt Miller's group was very effective against the advancing Germans. To draw a parallel, during the first Chechen war, a brigade (the Mikop) literally marched into rebel held Grozny with tanks and armoured personnel carriers in column formation. Similarly to Cpt Miller's ambush, the Chechen rebels were waiting for them, with firing positions prepared in the upper floors of buildings, in basements and covered in strongpoints. Rebels in basements and on the upper floors of buildings were completely immune to tank fire. The rebels also had very capable snipers. The T-72 tank could not depress (-) or elevate (+) its 125mm primary weapon to the required angle to engage these rebels. The rebels also had an ace in the form of the RPG (Rocket Propelled Grenade). Most likely they were the early model RPG-7, but these may have been complimented by other anti-tank weapons. They likely would also have had RPO-A's (rocket propelled flamethrower) for any troops who attempted to dismount, in addition to machine gun positions and as I mentioned and very capable snipers (so accurate that they could shoot the radio antenna off an APC). In typical column ambush fashion, the rebels first took out the leading and trailing vehicles in the column first to give those in between no room to move or escape. They rained RPG rounds on the tanks and APCs (some tanks were hit 4 or 5 times) and some soldiers destroyed inside their APC (Armoured Personnel Carrier - probably BMP-2/BTR-80) without even firing a shot. At the end of it all, the Mikop brigade ceased to be - they were annihalated to a man. Grozny square was littered with death - Russian bodies and the smokey hulks of burning tanks and APCs. It was a true military disaster. So how to counter this? The Russians learned from this experience and began to mix SPAAGs (Self Propelled Anti Aircraft Guns) in with their armoured columns. At the time the vehicle that fulfilled this role was the ZSU-23-4 Shilka. Armed with a quadruple 23mm gun mount, it was able to bring these fearsome weapons to bear at elevation angles other combat vehicles can not (the Shilka is a purpose designed AA weapon, so its armament must be able to be elevated to high angles for engagement). The quad 23mm guns are liquid cooled, have an extremely high rate of fire and can dispense several types of munition, as dictated by the operation. For the rebels, no longer was it a 100% safe bet to fire with impunity from the upper floors of buildings. Probably the only real weakness of the Shilka is its lack of effective armour protection (i.e. it has very thin armour). The technique of mixing Shilkas with armoured columns did however, prove an effective defence, probably as well as a deterrent. Over time, the Shilka was replaced by the newer Tunguska system which itself was replaced by the latest Pantsir system, which is armed with a mix of AA cannon and SAMs (Surface to Air) missiles. From the Russian experience you've just read, you can see partly why Cpt Miller's ambush was effective until ammunition was depleted and they were overrun due to superior numbers. I hope this little slice of analysis was an engaging read (no pun intended
its a film
" Mellish should have fixed his bayonet which would have given him a better chance of a kill (longer range, better leverage)" My thoughts exactly. As a death scene, it was brilliantly played out, and I couldn't have done it better myself
The above is quite an inspired post and i wish they had people like this directing war movies! Re the elevation thing on the tank, no it couldnt, u had to literally move to direction and fire those things like cannons of old.
Another big historical inaccuraccy was the complete lack of British involvement, i know we werent at Omaha where it really got messy - that beach was like how they thought all of them would have being on the day, but surely we deserved a mention instead of slagging good old monty off when the opportuntity arose!
And no they were seperate Germans so grats on winning your bet, the haircut things quite true too looking at contempary pictures of german forces at the time in Normandy but who knows maybe they actually had barbours out there.
I have a question about the radar tower scene, when Wade dies. I thought that squads would not attempt to engage an MG-42 nest head on. I thought the americans new that this could be suicide. I am suprised that Wade was the only one that was shot. If anyone can fill me in, please do.
Thanks so much for your kind words. I know Saving Ryan is only a movie but its based on history - real history - from a Europe reeling in chaos after the Nazi occupation of Poland, Belguim, Holland, France, move into Russia (Operation Barbarossa), etc followed eventually by the allied amphibious invasion (Operation Overlord) at Normandy to open up a second front, thus relieving some of the enourmous pressure on the Soviets fighting in the East. Stalin had been pushing the allies to execute Overlord for many months. But it was a gigantic task; requiring great organisation, training and planning on every scale to make is do-able. Some say "it's just a movie". To me that it akin to spitting on the headstones of the approximately 50 million people who died during WW2 - and also be mindful that 1945 wasn't that long ago. Films and literature such as Saving Ryan are a reminder to everyone, that freedom is not free at all and comes at the highest of costs, of blood and sacrifice. The posts I have written merely attempt to look deeper, and I try to provide an unbiased insight into the military tactics that were or could have been used during the allied defence at the bridge. Saving Ryan is not just a movie, per se. It is also a stark warning to never let the horrors of WW2 repeat themselves.
Not implying that Iran has any ambitions for war or expansion - I would still watch that country closely. I don't know if their leaders have watched Saving Ryan.
Lastly,
If you want to learn more about the Waffen SS (which literally translates to "armed or fighting SS"), the elite of the Nazi war machine, but also declared a criminal organisation at the Nuremburg trials, take a look at this video on YouTube:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6m_pvDV4JI
There are other videos that are available from interviews with SS veterans and the Allied soldiers who fought against them on the right of the main video window. Altogether these are a balanced and very informative set of presentations.
Nash,
I've often wondered myself why Captain Miller organised his men for a three-pronged frontal assault on the machine gun nest at the radar station. There was some cover in terms of shell craters and the like but also a lot of distance to run upright to get within grendade range, and a lot of this ground was free of cover and worse still, uphill. Captain Miller was relying on the delay that the Germans would incur when changing the MG42s barrels but I didn't see/hear this happen. The MG42 was a superb weapon - one of the best of the era - with an extremely high rate of fire. It does seem, looking back, to be somewhat suicidal to take on such a machine gun frontally - especially one dug-in. There are two points I guess. Firstly, Miller's squad would have been better off skirting around the target, through the brush, unnoticed and attacking it either from multiple angles on the flanks, with the Sgt and BAR gunner providing fire support to keep the Germans head down while the others advanced. The second point is: what the hell was Wade doing exposing himself to fire during the advance. He should not have been risking his neck during the assualt - he was far too important an asset to lose. But that's the way they played it out on the screen.
Responding to your post Beavie,
I don't know that Mellish even had a .45 1911; just his M1 Garand rifle (generally the case for his rank), with its much hated, loud, metallic "ping" when auto-ejecting empty ammo clips. The only workable option as I've mentioned is: with ammo out, a fixed bayonet or an entrenching tool (trench shovel) sharpened to a razors edge. Brutal, but tried and true, particularly in the bitter war in the East. Hide within striking reach and nail your opposition before he has time to react. Other options? Mellish didn't really have time to scan his surroundings for other possibilities (e.g. fire poker perhaps). What he had was all he had before the fight began. As a Ninjutsu practicioner we are taught to use our surroundings to our advantage, and that almost any object can become a lethal weapon in the right hands. Well, that's about it on my reply Beavie.
BTW if anyone would like to chat more about all this or anything at all military/otherwise, feel free to email me on vitalida@hotmail.com. I'd be happy to correspond - you seem like a really cool bunch of guys.
near the beginning at omaha beach, caparso hands mellish a knife and he crys. im unsure as to why he crys and is upset!! im sure you hardcores will know why!!! thanks